[†] This point is possibly too broad to give much support to in a brief summary; but I have tried to summarize the main point. **Note: The title of this post is purposely changed to “Presbyterian vs. Baptist” despite Bannerman writing about Congregational Independency, not Baptists. One must further account for the women, not explicitly mentioned, but implied. 26 comments. Baby baptism not so cool? Worship. Recovering the Reformed Confession: Our Theology, Piety, and Practice (Phillipsburg: Presbyterian & Reformed, 2008), 179. Most Baptists I know have accused the PCA of putting too much weight on the Westminster Standards believing it takes away from the Bible. Baptist vs Presbyterian . Several forms of ecclesiastical polity are exercised by a group of Reformed churches, including presbyterian, congregationalist, and some episcopalian. Bannerman then explains Independency. The Lutheran and Presbyterian churches are both Protestant sects of Christianity that were founded during the Protestant Reformation in the 16th century. So I wanted to consider Bannerman’s last chapter, because I don’t think I’ve ever written anything on Presbyterianism as opposed to other models of church government. Now while they were passing through the cities, “You Left Calvinism Because You Didn’t Understand It” — Maybe Not, America Was Doomed From Its Inception: “We the People” or “Christ the King”, Russell Moore and Premature Comments on Police Shootings. The assertion here is that when the word ‘Church’ is used in the singular (i.e. It seems that often people hold the position they do more out of tradition or upbringing than by conviction—so it’s important to evaluate your position, in light of Scripture, from time to time. This may or may not be a major sticking point, but I know some who get very much behind a certain form of polity get very dogmatic about it. Under that name “are included those principles which lead the denomination now referred to to assert that each worshipping congregation is a Church, independent of every other congregation,–being with its office-bearers complete within itself, and having no connection with other parts of one ecclesiastical system, or united under one ecclesiastical government” (823). Therefore, there seems to be a strong warrant for its office-bearers to come together, in unity, for the edification and governance of the church at large. "Calvinistic," perhaps, at least with respect to the doctrines of grace, but that's about it. In addition to the show, both participants in the discussion would like to offer additional resources to our listeners. The Church of Jerusalem is Bannerman’s test case. The single name under which the several distinct…congregations at Jerusalem are spoken of as ‘the Church’ there, is of itself sufficient to prove that they had a common bond of union in their subordination to one ecclesiastical government. This, of course, does not exclude the church members from their duty to witness, proclaim, and give reason for the hope within them to the world around them; especially when called upon to give an account. The 1689 Baptist Confession of Faith was written along Reformed Baptist lines. (1) That the word ‘Church’ can denote two or more congregations in a given city. Bannerman deals with them on pages 834-837, and I leave it to your study (though I’d be willing to discuss them in the comments). There’s an important point made at the outset of this discussion. I do hope that it might benefit someone who is truly interested in understanding better their position on church polity. [§]  Again if there is a ruling elder, there must be something to rule—otherwise it’s just a name, with no functional meaning. Covenant Theology: most hold to the classic Reformedcontrast between the Covenant of Works in Adam and the Covenant of Grace inChrist (the last Adam) - and the Elect in Him as His seed. Presbyterians do not deny these two meaning, but believe that there is a third way to understand ‘Church’ in the New Testament: (3) as “a combination of more than one congregation [in the same city], united together under a common government” (844). I agree on general but I think if you're undecided on some spiritual issues it's fine to believe for the sake of believing, so long as you recognize that you are supposed to be in submission before spiritual elders. I’ll skip the biographical sketch of Bannerman (you can find one here), and get right to the chapter. The Protestant Reformation was a major schism within the Christian religion. affords a very strong presumptive evidence in favour of the right of association for the purposes of government in the Church. Depending on the Baptist church, it may in fact be run like the Presbyterianism discussed above, with a plurality of elders that exercise power and authority in a similar manner. “The chief and highest exercise of Church power, to declare the mind of God from His Word, and to preach the Gospel to sinners, is ever represented as the work of presbyters, and never as the duty of the members” (832-833). On the other hand, Presbyterians … The argument here starts with the assertion that the word ‘Church’—ἐκκλησία—has a threefold meaning in the Scriptures, as opposed to the twofold meaning held by Independents. The PCA is a Presbyterian denomination (obviously), so it will have Presbyterian (or elder-led) polity. The only difference between office-bearers and laypersons is that the office-bearers propose measures for adoption and, once voted on and consented to by the members, ensure their execution (822). Much of what is contained in this point has been stated at this point. Reformed Baptists, Dutch Reformed Church. The passage seems to indicate a distinction between an elder that “rules” and one that labors in “word and doctrine” (viz., teaching elder). I. share. You are certainly right about the SBC as a denomination, but the beauty of the SBC is that our Statement of Faith is not "binding" in a true sense. To the best of my knowledge, Baptists hold that infant initiation belonged to the old covenant and expired with it. Again it is said that, after Peter preached, about 5,000 were added to that number. What are the differences between the American Presbyterian denominations and Independent Baptist churches? The SBC is generally Arminian. “Under the name of Congregationalism,” Bannerman explains, “are included those principles which lead them to assert for all the members of the Church, as well as for the office-bearers, a share in its rule and administration.”  As opposed to Presbyterianism, where the decision-making authority is vested in a representative body of elders, the “act of the rulers is null and void without the act of the members consenting with it.”  In other words, the governance of the church is shared equally by the members and the office-bearers. On that same day it is recorded that 3,000 were gathered into the Church, and it is said that “the Lord added daily to the Church such as should be saved” (Acts 2:41, 47). Methodists and Presbyterians are two of the many denominations that are there in Christianity. This, Bannerman believes, may be established in one of two ways. Overall, both are good denominations that, from what I've seen, generally are firmly grounded in Scripture, have a heart for evangelism, and are mostly united despite sometimes major differences. Hmm . Presbyterians: Statement of Beliefs of the First Presbyterian Church in Waco. Their beliefs are primarily extracted from the 210 th General Assembly of the Presbyterian Church (USA) and are based on John Calvin’s theology. In the case of the Congregationalists it is the members that lead, pastor, oversee, and rule—not a distinct body of men set apart for that purpose. The most com… It is dying. Many modern-day Baptists have succumbed to the same tendency; this is why in many churches you’ll find no elders, only a pastor and maybe a deacon or two. I highly recommend Bannerman’s book in that endeavor; it is a tome to be sure, but it reads nicely, and he is very good at outlining things simply for your understanding. If power is split between the office-bearers and members, then in what sense are the elders (presbyters) ruling, governing, or leading? That’s the question that must be answered—but only if you’re Baptist or Presbyterian. Reformed and Presbyterian churches - Reformed and Presbyterian churches - Reformed churches in Germany: The Peace of Westphalia in 1648 established the legality of Reformed churches in German states, according to the pleasure of the ruling prince. (1) Join the church that preaches the full counsel of God through faithful exegesis while practicing life on life discipleship and effectively engaging the community. “It is utterly impossible, upon any rational theory of interpretation, to maintain that the many thousands of converts thus particularly mentioned in Scripture, as added to the Church at Jerusalem, could have found it practicable to meet together as one worshipping assembly” (846). The major exceptions are, obviously, being truly "confessional," and a different understanding of Covenant Theology. “The single name under which the several distinct…congregations at Jerusalem are spoken of as ‘the Church’ there, is of itself sufficient to prove that they had a common bond of union in their subordination to one ecclesiastical government.” This is confirmed by the fact that the elders and deacons were referred to, not as the office-bearers of this or that congregation, but by the Church there. [*] Someone may object to Bannerman outlining the terms of this discussion, but his analysis and summarization of the positions are directly quoted from a contemporary authority on the position: Ralph Wardlaw, Congregational Independency (1848). Reformed position: God decreed, logically, the election of the recipients of His saving grace before the decree to provide salvation for them through Christ. . Also, Baptists are historically Calvinist, that's not a "Baptist" point. . made up of true believers throughout the world; a combination of more than one congregation [in the same city], united together under a common government, Christ, after His resurrection, was seen of ‘above five hundred brethren at once’ [1 Cor 15:6], the Lord added daily to the Church such as should be saved, It is utterly impossible, upon any rational theory of interpretation, to maintain that the many thousands of converts thus particularly mentioned in Scripture, as added to the Church at Jerusalem, could have found it practicable to meet together as one worshipping assembly, by most interpreters of Scripture, that the seventy disciples whom Christ…commissioned to preach the Gospel, labored for a period of time at Jerusalem. The PCA practices infant baptism and generally does baptism by sprinkling or pouring. **Note: The title of this post is purposely changed to “Presbyterian vs. Baptist” despite Bannerman writing about Congregational Independency, not Baptists. Also, we know that for several years the twelve apostles occupied ministry in that city, and Acts 11 indicates several more presbyters and deacons within the city. We're still united in Christ, despite the denominational differences. I would love to hear all of your perspectives. oh, wait, yes they do. There is no way of knowing how many converts existed prior to the Lord’s ascension or the outpouring of the Spirit of Pentecost; but what we do know is that there was over 100 disciples who met in the upper room during the Spirit’s outpouring, and that at one time, “Christ, after His resurrection, was seen of ‘above five hundred brethren at once’ [1 Cor 15:6]” (845). It sounds like I am much closer to the PCA than the RB view. Other than that, there are not many Reformed options besides a ND Reformed church and a couple PCUSA churches. the Church of Rome, the Church of Corinth). Who do you say is in the church? “Multitudes,”  Acts 5:14 and Acts 6:7 tell us, were being grafted into the Church on a daily basis. This may seem more relevant to modern distinctions between Presbyterians and Baptists. He makes the decision he believes is best for the family, by taking into consideration their thoughts and opinions. One could think of it much like marriage; the husband bears the decision-making authority within the household—based on his God-ordained role, not his inherent superiority—but not at the expense of his wife or children. Independents maintain that the word ‘Church’ is only used in two ways: (1) as speaking about the universal, mystical body of Christ, “made up of true believers throughout the world;” and (2) as a local congregation (i.e. Presbyterians affirm and practice pedobaptism (infant baptism) as well as credobaptism, while Baptists only view the latter as legitimate and biblical. Other than that, there are not many Reformed options besides a ND Reformed church and a couple PCUSA churches. Lord willing you will find something useful in this consideration—whether you agree or not—and better know why you believe what it is you believe concerning church polity. [‡] Most Presbyterians limit this to simply the teaching (pastor) and ruling elders. r/Reformed exists to be a place where reformed believers, in a broader understanding of the term, can come together, unified by a clear Gospel witness, to exhort one another, spur one another on intellectually in reformed theology, and discuss doctrine. At the end of the 17th century Reformed worship in the Palatinate was prohibited. Many Christians yearn for meat from the pulpit. (1) In connection with doctrine. They can trace their history through the early modern Particular Baptists of England.The first Reformed Baptist church was formed in the 1630s. This thread is archived . And third, these representatives met with the apostles and elders at Jerusalem, and, “after due deliberation and discussion, ministerially declaring the law of Christ on the question in debate, and issuing a decree on the point.”  “For it seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us to lay upon you no greater burden than these essentials…” (Acts 15:28); “Now while they were passing through the cities, they were delivering the decrees which had been decided upon by the apostles and elders who were in Jerusalem, for them to observe.” (Acts 16:4; emphasis mine on both verses; NASB). the Church of Jerusalem), it oftentimes denotes several congregations within a given city, united by a common government. The Presbyterian view can be gleaned from this description. Baptists seem to operate under the assumption that the Old Testament has no continuing relevance in the New Testament, unless the New Testament explicitly commands it, which is why Baptists don’t tithe or honor the Lord’s Day . Although all elders are to be able to teach, the Scripture recognizes a distinction in these functions.”. Reformed Baptists take seriously the admonition of Hebrews 10:24, 25 to stir up love and good works, not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together. Baptist and Presbyterian are two religious groups that show good number of differences between them when it comes to their beliefs and customs. “The rulers of the church admitted in name are denied in effect; and instead of holding an office Divine and independent, are made the mere delegates of the members of the Church, with authority conditioned by their concurrence, and strictly limited by their commission” (827). The SBC is historically Calvinist and still a good contingent of Calvinist people and pastors in the SBC. There is not the shadow of evidence in the Word of God to prove that private members ever baptized, or dispensed the bread and wine of a Communion Table. Non-Denom / Baptist. are included those principles which lead them to assert for all the members of the Church, as well as for the office-bearers, a share in its rule and administration. Understanding these two names, Bannerman examines each in turn, and how they are challenged by the Presbyterian system. it would be a mistake to suppose that Presbyterianism…overlooks or undervalues the importance of the consent of the Christian members of the Church in her authoritative proceedings. In my opinion, Clark’s position is neither biblical nor confessional for the following reasons: (1) In the New Testament, baptism and church membership usually precede a thorough grounding in Christian doctrine (Matt 28:19-20; Acts 2:41-42; Eph 4:11-14). every proper means [must] be employed, in the way of explanation, persuasion, and instruction, to secure the concurrence of the members in the acts and proceedings of the rulers of the Christian society, that there is in the Church a power of government and administration vested in an order of office-bearers, separate from ‘the Church collectively considered,’ and ‘exercised independently of the concurrence of the members, We may prove from Scripture that Christ or His apostles, We may, without any reference to the express institution of the office, prove that the peculiar powers and authority of such an office have been usually exercised and permanently administered by a distinct body of men, separate from and independent of the Church collectively considered, The presbyters of the New Testament Church are spoken of as rulers, as pastors, as overseers, as stewards, as governments—words which all…include the idea of authority and governing power as distinctive of the office held by them, The rulers of the church admitted in name are denied in effect; and instead of holding an office Divine and independent, are made the mere delegates of the members of the Church, with authority conditioned by their concurrence, and strictly limited by their commission, the institution of a distinct class of presbyters for the express purpose of government in the Christian society…serves greatly to confirm the evidence we have from Scripture against the Congregationalist principle of a distribution of power…between office-bearers and members. “The presbyters of the New Testament Church are spoken of as rulers, as pastors, as overseers, as stewards, as governments—words which all…include the idea of authority and governing power as distinctive of the office held by them” (825). Bannerman first introduces those two principles: congregational and independent.[*]. If the first point is proven, then the second easily follows. Now this is not the only difference between historic Reformed Presbyterian churches and those churches known as Reformed Baptist. The Scripture evidence for “the stated and continual exercise of [these] particular functions…by a particular class, to the invariable exclusion of the members as large, would…establish the Presbyterian doctrine against the Congregational view” (832). This second point is meant to show, from Scripture, that the “proper and distinctive exercises of Church power and authority are uniformly and statedly performed by the office-bearers…and never by the members generally.” That power and authority within the church is manifest in three ways: (1) in connection with doctrine; (2) in connection with ordinances; and (3) in connection with government and discipline. after due deliberation and discussion, ministerially declaring the law of Christ on the question in debate, and issuing a decree on the point. Bannerman goes on to make a similar point concerning the amount of office-bearers and ministers that occupied seats in Jerusalem. . It makes sense that a qualification for rule in the church is how one rules in the home (1 Tim 3:2-4). Unlike Presbyterianism, where churches are united under a joint body of elders (presbyteries), Independent Congregationalists take issue with any presbytery, council, or synod that would attempt to impose measures upon it without their consent. A Presbyterian and a Reformed Baptist discuss baptism. Especially true for when we have convictions contrary to the doctrinal standards. to make up the idea of a supreme ecclesiastical court, with authority over not only the members and office-bearers within the local…congregations….but also the Presbyteries or inferior church courts included in the same limits. After much deliberation, and difference of opinion, they pronounced their judgment and subsequently commissioned certain members of the Council to carry the decision to the Churches in Antioch, Syria, and Cilicia (Acts 15:1-33, 41; 16:4ff). Baptist: Generally avoid creeds or confessions that might compromise commitment to the Scriptures as the sole rule of faith. 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